Australian Penthouse

Are you interested in expanding your output from still photography to film?
The internet has killed that area unless you have a lot of money behind you. I have friends who do, but it’s not really where my head’s at. I think the internet is run by people who want to see women be abused, but I’m not into that. I believe in consensual S&M. Whether a woman is on the top or bottom, I don’t care. A lot of profitable sites are for guys who get off on torture and the visual displeasure of women, and it’s not my deal.

Your photos show some discomfort… I mean, those heels could kill….
The point is that a woman in high heels is vulnerable, and not necessarily dominant. Unless, of course, she is Annie Sprinkle, who can move fast.

The beauty of your work is the intimacy between the photographer and the subject.
I like that. I lot of people say, “You’re not going to get involved with the women?” and I’m like, “Totally.” The thing is, if she’s there and it’s play and we’re high, then it’s cool. One night, we had two women and this guy came over and we all took turns playing sexual games. Everyone had cameras and we were all taking pictures. There was one shot of me taking a picture of Gwen framed by her naked legs.

The beauty of your work is the intimacy between the photographer and the subject. I like that. I lot of people say, “You’re not going to get involved with the women?” and I’m like, “Totally.” The thing is, if she’s there and it’s play and we’re high, then it’s cool. One night, we had two women and this guy came over and we all took turns playing sexual games. Everyone had cameras and we were all taking pictures. There was one shot of me taking a picture of Gwen framed by her naked legs.

So authorship is not that important in your photography?
It’s more about the energy. Of course, I’m helping create that energy. I’m bringing in those elements. I love to orchestrate. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t.

Does invoking your name help?
It’s amazing what women will let us, including my friend [and fellow photographer] Richard Kern, do—either with them or to them.

Why is that—is it your celebrity?
It’s partly that. Everyone wants to be recognised. They want to be in a Kroll or Kern book. It gives them validity. There’s a lot of insecurity out there and people don’t know where they are going, so they are validated by being in a photograph. Another thing is that a lot of photographers have no fucking pre-visualisation. They expect the model to come up with something. While they know I try not to direct too much, I know what I want and they appreciate that. For example, a shot called Girlfriend as Birdfeeder had Gwen covered in birdseed, which is sexual
but humorous and had a bit of Dada going on—a wave to the furry teacup [sculpture by Méret Oppenheim].

Are you a fan of Dada and the Surrealists, then?
Yes, I have a lot of Man Ray’s work. When I first met Gwen, I would get her to shave a lot and collect the hair, then I’d photograph her sticking the hair back on, like under her armpits. I also put her pubic hair on a slice of pizza for a shot.

With people such as Richard Kern and yourself there seems to be a rebirth of almost amateurish photography, where available light is used as opposed to that of the studio. And where the models, even porn stars, are used but deliberately not made up—showing pimples and the like.
I think Richard and I both lean that way. Irving Klaw, who shot the Bettie Page photos in the ’50s, was a big influence. These hot women were lit by floodlights and you could see the light sockets. That’s what I was jerking off to. What was erotic to me was it was real.

But your work is a lot more elaborate than that.
Certainly in the costuming. My mother was a model when she was young. My parents gave me this aesthetic that you see in the photograph

A ’50s New York style?
Yes, I get off on that. There are some girls whose pussies I want to look at, but for the most part I would rather see them clothed. I shot this 19-year-old and I didn’t care for her pussy. She’s not going to read this, is she?

Maybe. Where do you usually find your models?
Well, that girl was stripping and did escorting. She made a lot of bucks. She walked into one of my exhibitions. She didn’t know who I was, but she wanted to be in one of my photographs. I don’t put pressure on people to work with me. If I see a girl, I give her my card and let her know what kind of work I do. And if she wants to call me, she will.

Then flawlessly airbrushed beauty is not your aim?
I’m not really interested in making someone look beautiful. My theory is that the stuff you jerk off to at 15 is the stuff that does it when you’re 40. The girl who took my virginity wore a girdle and that stayed with me.

That reminds me of ’60s comic artist Robert Crumb whose obsession with big-bottomed women litters his work.
I appeared in the documentary about Crumb. I had a woman I was photographing, but in the movie he rejected her because she was too perfect. She wasn’t large enough.

What’s he like?
He’s really nervous. He did a nice drawing for me.

You’re probably best know for your work with one particular model, known as Gwen (real name Felice), whom you had a relationship with for almost a decade. How did you meet?
It was Valentine’s Day 1995 or ’96. I was on a booth with my wife and I went up to this area, saw Gwen being tied up, gave her my card and it didn’t mean shit to her. Her boyfriend or the guy she was in love with said, “You should pose for him.” Good thing he was around or she never would have called me. She was 21. I wanted a role relationship, but somewhere along the line it became a love relationship.

Was your wife okay with that?
No.

She didn’t like that particular kind of photography, either?
As long as I was married to her, I was an art photographer. The moment we got divorced, I was a pornographer.
My name appeared in a book alongside [painter and sculptor] Joan Miró, which I was excited about, and she never even looked at it.

What sort of relationship did you and Gwen have?
Gwen didn’t like me fooling around. We were paranoid about having safe sex—and what we called safe sex was a lot safer than what many other people would do. Even in my photographs, I’m known for putting plastic wrap on the pussy before doing oral sex.

Does having a camera act as a buffer and help you remove yourself from the fact that Gwen was actually having sex with someone else?
Not really. You can’t have a hard-on when you’re directing. I have a house in Tucson, Arizona and we’d met this guy at a local restaurant. He was a good-looking black guy. He came over a couple of times for photoshoots and he was cool with it all. One time, we were playing ‘Truth or Dare’ and we had a few drinks and it got wild. There was a lack of communication and the next thing we knew, it got more sexual. Later, Gwen asked, “Why didn’t you stop him?” I admit I did photograph it, so it can be kind of touch and go sometimes.

Has it ever gone too far?
Not that I know about. People expect me to be protective, but I’m not going to be overly protective. I’m not that monogamous kind of guy. I’m more concerned about disease than moral issues. At the beginning of our relationship, we would play separate from each other, but we cut that out as it was getting weird.

Does having an unstable relationship upset your work?
If the communication breaks down and we fight, then there’s not the support there. I go from one deadline to the
next, so it helps when I don’t have to think, “Is this relationship working?” Also, I’m getting older, so I don’t really need another pussy—just the one is plenty for me.